亡灵之手

　　大岛渚与法国合作的第二部作品，与上一部不同的是，这部作品终于得以在日本本土上映并获得荣誉。当然，这种荣誉不过是日本豪猪心态的又一次体现（由于在戛纳获得了最佳导演，受到欧洲认可的大岛才得以使作品顺利回归日本）。实际上，日本的主流评论仍然不认可这样的大岛作品。这部作品，藤龙也依旧主演，吉行和子在人物塑造上也算成功。作品仍然没有早期大岛作品的日本式批判写实主义风格，而是继续按照西方架构进行编排，剧情甚至可从狄更斯作品中找到影子。户田重昌的美术设计在当年堪称惊世。但过于卖弄和风，反而令剧本稍嫌薄弱。对于1895年日本社会的描摹仍旧哗众取宠，按照西方的东方主义思维塑造出西方人想象中的日本。大岛先生在当时并未完全走出实验电影的框架，在部分场景上仍旧有实验色彩。所以在评价上历来呈现两极分化。美学上的成就和人类学上的做作令作品在世界观的表达上颇显矛盾。

这部电影是大岛渚在拍了《感官世界》之后的电影，演男主的演员是《感官世界》中扮演男主角吉藏的演员藤竜也。这部片子里面他演的是一个农村二流子，流氓兮兮的，和《感官世界》里风流小老板的样子差别挺大的。这个故事也是一个婚外情的故事，但这部电影的重点更多在于情欲与社会之间的矛盾。

从日文或者法文的电影名大概都可以看出来，这两部电影算是个姊妹篇，《感官世界》的日文名是愛のコリーダ（爱之斗牛），法文名是L'empire des sens（感官世界），通用的中文翻译采用的是法文的翻译；而这部电影的日文名的直译是爱之亡灵，法文名则是L’empire de la passion（激情世界），至于为什么看的是法文名而不看英文——这部电影的制作方是法国的。《感官世界》描述的是无法持续的两性关系的内部毁灭，而《爱之亡灵》讨论的则是无法持续的两性观之的外部斗争。我如果两部电影同时看过的话，《感官世界》那篇影评，我可能会另外取一个文章名，诸如：情欲矛盾之内部毁灭之类的。

我还是更喜欢《感官世界》一些，《爱之亡灵》讨论的是情欲与社会之间的矛盾，不过凡是婚外情与社会之间的矛盾，那么必然会讨论到婚姻制度。不像《感官世界》这种讨论极端性爱的电影，讨论婚姻制度在文艺作品多之又多，《安娜卡列尼娜》、《金瓶梅》都是讨论的家庭婚姻问题。《爱之亡灵》中，女主角农妇阿石的生活平平淡淡，但她并不幸福，贫穷而且没有性生活，完全不符合她原本对生活的期待，小她一轮的村口光棍丰次一而再再而三上门引诱她，然后就上演了一出，潘金莲西门庆杀武大郎的剧情。后来的剧情我个人觉得没什么逻辑可言，和笔记小说中的杂谈鬼故事差不多，我对鬼怪题材本来就不看兴趣，加之一看女人尖叫哭喊就头痛，所以后面的剧情没有仔细看。此片的优点除了音乐、美术意外，主要在于导演把对情欲和婚姻制度的讨论放在了一个很朴实的背景，即使是普通的农妇对生活依旧有着憧憬，而无趣的婚姻生活显然扼杀了她的憧憬。我觉得此片中对婚姻制度的讨论并没有什么新意，而且本片的节奏有点慢，我想要是李翰祥来拍这种村口愚夫愚妇的鬼神题材故事，大概半小时故事就结束了……

我一向认为离婚率高是好事，无论离婚结婚都是奔着幸福生活而去的，结婚率高离婚率高，都说明了“人民对美好生活的向往”在与日俱增。如果一个社会离婚率低，那么要么是这个社会人口降低、要么是这个社会没有合理的婚姻退出机制。没有合理退出制度的任何组织都是没有参与意义的，婚姻也一样。安娜卡列尼娜、潘金莲、还有本片中的阿石，如果都能够顺利离婚的话，那么这些悲剧故事都不复存在。这么想来，离婚不止可以拯救婚姻枷锁中的男男女女，还可以拯救多少原本会被情杀的人？

看完这部电影，我深深的喘了一口气，终于坚持看完了。
真是不那么流畅不那么引人如胜的电影

貌似临死前的那些人的心电波一般
还常常……短路……

可能之前看过感官世界，对这部片子就产生了很多的期待


话说回来这个片子还真是充满了他们民族的特色
1男女猪的挑选
女的说不上特别漂亮，但是很柔美
男的除了猪腰子脸的败笔之外，我觉得存在一种性魅力。

2那个幽灵
活生生的从卡通片里面扣出来的，看的时候请注意它手部动作

3女猪的恐惧
就是恐怖片的特色，这里应该是导演感情宣泄的地方，女猪一直生活在恐惧之中，经常尖叫。
做爱也叫见鬼也叫，还叫的有点夸张

4冬天过后的画面就开始有些美感突出了
最后面雪花再次飘落也还能感受一些凄美吧

面对由欲望而生发的罪恶，没有忏悔，只有恐惧；以及为了为了排除恐惧而进而为之的暴力、放纵，甚至是自杀式的毁灭。最不能忍受的是将这一残酷的，畸变的欲望美化为爱，或者是一种道，抑或是什么主义！

每当这种时候总是很鄙视自己，真不想承认这么容易就被招哭了。
其实我并不是要说《爱之亡灵》这片子多么好，多么值得看，就那么回事吧，没特殊兴趣的根本不必专门找来看。直看到三分之二的时候我还认为买错了，上当了，准备周末去碟店换－－我要的感官世界二不是这个所谓的“姊妹片”，而是黑木瞳翻拍的《感官新世界》，还是阿部定。也就是说，直看到三分之二，这个片子还一点没有打动我。有啥呀？不就是部日版的潘金莲西门庆谋杀亲夫吗？只不过添了些武大郎的鬼戏进来。如果戏没什么意思，演员够漂亮，片子够A也行，结果更失望，一点都不A，更别说“感官”了，至于漂亮，潘金莲倒还不难看，但也就是群众演员里生得比较好的，西门庆更惨，某个角度象足了赵本山。

谁想到把我招哭的是赵本山呢？这个浪荡子，二流子，在那之前我真当他对她也就是西门庆一路的，有的不过是情欲。当然，也不是从来就没有过情，只是久了，激情渐褪，又让她的重压得喘不过气来的时候，难免就会生出躲闪逃跑的心。不，并不一定就是她爱得更深更投入，这里从来没有天平，只是同样一件事在男人和女人那里的比重原本就不同，这是没法子的事。在他或许是轻轻巧巧一个转身，在她，如果她始终无法学会换一种不重的姿势，便只会是纵身一扑－－是扑，不是跃。是扑，自然就得拼尽全部力气，押上全部份量。结果只有一个：在将自己摔死的同时，也将他压死。在我只看到前三分之二的时候，就是这样想象着丰次对阿石的“情欲”的，一直到听到那句“我做不到”。

他做不到只当这是情欲，做不到只当她是个偷情的对象，做不到听任她死去，做不到一个人逃走独活，哪怕是她要求他这样做的也不行。也许以前他不是没想过，当流言四起，警察开始出没的时候，是他抛下正让负罪感和鬼魂折磨得濒于崩溃的她，提出要分开一段避避风头的。可当一切真地出现在眼前，面对火光中的她，他发现自己根本做不到。对，就是这四个字象一颗重磅催泪瓦斯在第一个回合将我击倒的。就是他发疯似地撞着被她闩死的门，试图用已经鲜血淋漓的手拽开窗栅栏，就是他歇斯底里的大叫大嚷着回答她要他一个人逃走的话：“我做不到！我做不到！我做不到！”

做不到。到这里我才知道，这个浪荡子，这个二流子，这个杀人犯，原来他也做不到。不，这样说不对，这个“原来…也…”的句式根本折辱了他。事实是：就是他这样的才做不到，做不到的从来是他这样的，果然。就象游苔莎的韦狄，另一个轻薄浪荡的坏蛋，看到游苔莎跳进河里，他半点犹豫都没有就紧跟着跳了下去。谁会想到，两个人里，跳下去的居然是他？居然是那个坏蛋。他居然会先于她的丈夫，想都没想，连大衣都没顾得上脱，就一头扎进激流里去，唯一来得及做的只不过是最后叫了声“我的爱人”。爱人。除了在甜言蜜语的时候，他是绝不会承认爱她的，连跟自己都不承认。自以为爱她的人当然是她的丈夫了，他的爱真可称得上是理智冷静的典范，在那个坏蛋被洪水吞没的时候，这个好人还在岸上寻找“安全妥当”的法子。－－承不承认爱真得无关紧要，重要的只有一样，就是他做不到。

因为做不到，最后也是他抢先招供的，是他先喊：“是我一个人干的！”当然，这样至高无上的功劳，这光荣的罪行，她绝不会听任他独自抢去的。这一幕象极了去年的一个梦啊。在片子里，两个人是被五花大绑（百热胃，这个词真是越来越诱人了，得承认，不是从来就这么诱人的，只是越来越。越来越）吊在树上拷打的，树叶金黄，天很蓝，阳光灿烂，看得见远处山头上一带积雪。两个人都可以听见对方的供词，都看得见爱人的血。而在那个梦里，只有一间黑漆漆的刑室，谁都看不见谁。一个人被五花大绑，堵住嘴死死地按在地上，在另一个人身后的黑影了。他看不见她，不知道她在，不知道她已经招认过“是我先的，是我一个人的罪”，也象是抢功似的说出－－不！是喊出一字不差的供词来。在梦里，那个被五花大绑堵住嘴的人，她的脸被紧摁在水泥地上，什么都看不见，一个字都不能说，一动也不能动，却又气又笑。气是气对方居然想抢走全部的功劳，笑是笑做同案犯原来如此幸福。直笑得满脸都是泪。没错，就是泪，在梦里都感觉得到这一次是往处流的。就象那些血。再没什么不能往外流了，反正这案子已经破了，已经是铁板钉钉过了明路的同案犯了，再不用受煎熬了。

【本文首发于《虹膜》公众号】

作者：Michael Henry

译者：覃天

校对：易二三

来源：Positif（1978年5月刊）

What were the circumstances that brought you to the projectEmpire of Passion?

记者：你是怎么开始《爱的亡灵》这个项目的？

This film is very tightly linked toSenses.Isn’t it the fate of a creator to respond, through a new work, to the sympathy previously bestowed on him by critics, and maybe even to try to surpass the previous work? In truth, at the end of 1976, the year I dedicated myself entirely toIn the Realm of the Senses,an unknown person, Itoko Nakamura, sent me her book. I get a lot of publications this way—new books that someone asks me to review and unbound manuscripts from unknown authors. I often spend entire days leafing through them. But when I’m working on a specific project, I will open the envelope out of compulsion but put off reading what’s inside until later. As I was starting to write the script for my next film, I was just about to put Nakamura’s book aside when its title suddenly captured my attention—Takashi Nagatsuka: Three Generationsto Fertilize the Soil.For many months, I had kept Nagatsuka’s novel,The Soil,which I consider a masterpiece, in a drawer. And this unknown correspondent had enclosed a letter in her package, from which one sentence stood out: “I’m certain that the director ofIn the Realm of the Senseswill understand: even in this dark period of Japanese history, the era of the Meiji, love did exist.” She added: “This book has many misprints, but it would have never seen the light of day without the help of a network of friends generous with their time and advice.” The message touched me deeply, and I immediately took the privilege of being the first to read the manuscript.

大岛渚：这部电影与《感官世界》的联系十分紧密。对一个创作者来说，通过一部新作来回应影评人此前给予他的认同，并且试图超越前作，这难道不是他的命运吗？事实上，在１９７６年底，也就是我全身心投入到《感官世界》的那一年，一个不知名的人——中村糸子给我寄来了她的书。我通过这种方式获得了很多出版物——有人请我审阅的新书，以及不知名作者的未装订手稿。我经常花一整天的时间翻阅它们。但是当我在做一个具体的项目时，我会迫不及待地打开信封，但会过一会儿才去看里面的内容。当我开始写下一部电影的剧本时，我正要把中村糸子的书放在一边，但是它的标题突然吸引了我的注意力——《长塚节：三代人印象中的小说「土」》。几个月来，我一直把长塚节的小说《土》放在抽屉里，我认为它是一部杰作。而这位不知名的作者在她的包裹里附上了一封信，信中有一句话格外醒目：「我相信《感官世界》的导演一定会明白：即使在日本历史的黑暗时期——明治时代，爱也是存在的。」她补充说：「这本书有很多印刷错误，但如果没有朋友之间慷慨提供的时间，建议和帮助，它永远不会面世。」这句话深深地打动了我，我立即有幸第一个读到了手稿。

How did this manuscript influence or inspire the screenplay that you were working on at the time?

记者：中村糸子的手稿在多大程度上影响了你当时正在着手写的剧本？ Itoko Nakamura wanted first of all to convey in writing a true image of Takashi Nagatsuka. She said, “If I don’t write it, who will?” Of course she’d never met the great writer, who lived from 1879 to 1915, but her grandfather and father knew him well. They had recounted numerous anecdotes about his life to her in great detail. The stories that connect the three generations of Nagatsuka and Nakamura would make for a real saga. And from that saga, the character of Takashi [Nagatsuka] stands out as a sympathetic man rather than an abstract genius. You can only share in the warm feelings Nakamura expresses toward her character, Nagatsuka.

大岛渚：中村糸子想首先通过写作传达出长塚节的真实形象。她说，「如果我不写，谁会写呢？」当然，她从未见过这位生活在１８７９年至１９１５年间的伟大作家，但她的祖父和父亲很了解他。他们向她详细地讲述了许多关于他生活的趣闻轶事。将长冢节和中村三代人联系在一起的故事将构成一个真正的传奇。从这个传奇故事中，长塚节的形象跃然纸上，他是一个富有同情心的人，而不是一个抽象的天才。你能从中村糸子笔下的长冢节身上感到温暖。

To enrich her biography, she also evoked the unfortunate murder of Gisaburo, the rickshaw man. This event happened on the night of February 20, 1896, and she’d often heard about it because her father had been the police investigator at the scene of the crime. According to Nakamura, the novelist became very interested in this murder, which took place in a village close to his. He had intended to devote a novel to it, but he died before being able to write it. On her end, after having questioned all the people who might have known about the murder, Nakamura gathered together all her findings in one narrative. I was struck by this story, which does, in fact, prove that “even in this dark period of Japanese history... love did exist.”

为了丰富她的传记，中村糸子还提到了人力车夫仪三郎被不幸谋杀的事件。这件事发生在１８９６年２月２０日的晚上，她经常听说这件事，因为她的父亲曾是犯罪现场的警方调查员。根据中村的说法，这位小说家对这起谋杀案非常感兴趣，这起谋杀案发生在离他很近的一个村庄里。他本打算写一部小说，但还没来得及写就去世了。在询问了所有可能知道这起谋杀案的人之后，中村把她所有的发现都收集到了一个故事中。这个故事给我留下了深刻的印象，事实上，它确实证明了「即使在日本历史上这段黑暗的时期…...爱是存在的。」

I was touched even more deeply because the screenplay I was working on took place, give or take a few miles and a few years, in the same world. My main character, instead of being a rickshaw man, was a carriage driver nicknamed the Bear Ogre, who was in all the Japanese newspapers’ crime blotters in 1926. To describe the suffering endured by poor peasants hungry for love, I created a story that was in fact very close to Nakamura’s. So I first tried to include the murder of the rickshaw man in my own screenplay. But as I progressed, the characters from the manuscript kept imposing themselves on me, until they invaded the entire story. In the end, I decided to write to Nakamura, and got her consent to adapt a section of her work.

我被更深地触动到了，是因为我正在写的剧本的故事，发生地的距离和故事的时间，都和中村提到的事件相近。我的主人公不是一个人力车夫，而是一个在１９２６年，出现在所有日本报纸的犯罪记录中，绰号叫「食人熊」的马车司机，为了描述贫苦农民对爱情的渴望，我创作了一个与中村非常接近的故事，所以我首先尝试在自己的剧本中加入车夫被谋杀的情节。但随着我的进展，手稿中的人物不断地对我施加影响，直到他们侵入了整个故事。最后，我决定给中村写信，并得到她的同意改编了她的一部分作品。

What kind of a link do you see betweenPassionandSenses? Did you get the idea of a diptych as you were developing the new project, or did it happen progressively as you were directing it?

记者：你认为《爱的亡灵》和《感官世界》之间有着什么样的联系？你是在开始这个新项目的时候，还是在执导它的时候，想到了制作一部与《感官世界》对应的影片呢？ It’s completely normal for a filmmaker to bathe more than once in the same spring. And the close relationship you mention does indeed seem to exist. Just as inIn the Realm of the Senses,the story is about a man and a woman who do not hesitate in aligning their daily existence with their deepest sexual urges. Nowadays, nothing interests me quite as much as approaching the various forms that love can take with people who can only besavedby that love.

大岛渚：对于一个导演来说，「在一片泉水多次沐浴」是十分寻常的。而你提到的这两部电影之间密切的关系似乎确实存在。就像在《感官世界》中一样，《爱的亡灵》的故事讲述的是一男一女毫不犹豫地将他们的日常存在与他们最深层的性冲动结合起来。如今，没有什么比探讨爱情的各种形式更让我感兴趣的了，因为只有通过这种爱才能拯救那些人。

InSenses,the lovers created from start to finish—and with such supreme refinement—the voluptuous world that united them until the voluntary death of Kichi. Whereas inPassion,the couple seem to be the victim of their own desires and fantasies. The passion between Seki and Toyoji is depicted as a descent into hell. Is this the fate of adulterous love in the era in which the story is rooted? Or do you think that love in and of itself carries a tragic fate?

在《感官世界》中，那对情侣自始至终创造了一个如此精致的，纵欲的世界，这个世界将他们联结在一起，直到石田吉藏最终自愿性的死亡。而在《爱的亡灵》中，这对夫妇似乎是自己欲望和幻想的牺牲品，而女主人公阿石和丰次之间的激情被描绘成应该下地狱的一种感情。这是故事发生的那个时代，不贞爱情的命运吗？或者你认为爱情本身就是一种悲剧的命运？

The space inSenseswas delineated by the different rooms of love. It was artificially created, completely designed for voluptuousness. On the other hand, inPassionit is all about nature. Seki has a house where she lives with her husband, and Toyoji a small hovel that he shares with his young brother. Neither of these places is artificial. The two lovers live in fear because they constantly feel threatened by nature. I am trying to depict the human condition in its primal stage. In that sense, my new film goes back to the roots of all life, much more deeply thanSensesever did. The lovers seem cast into hell because of their sexual urges, but in my opinion, the rumbling of the earth, the murmur of the wind, the rustling of the trees, the songs of the birds and insects, in short, all of nature, is guiding the couple into hell. And the ghost itself is part of nature. Neither sex nor love has any meaning. Life itself has no meaning. And if it doesn’t have meaning, isn’t it hell? All I can do is express and project before you this human life devoid of any meaning, this hell that for me is always beautiful.

大岛渚：《感觉世界》中的空间被不同的房间中的爱欲所勾勒出来。它是人工创造的、完全是为了纵欲而设计的。另一方面，在《爱的亡灵》中，这一切都关于自然。阿石有一所房子，她和她的丈夫住在那里。丰次有一间小茅屋，他和他的弟弟住在一起。这两个地方都不是人造的。这对恋人生活在恐惧中，因为他们经常感到大自然的威胁。我试图描绘人类在原始阶段的状况。从这个意义上说，我的这部新电影回到了所有生命的根源，比《感官世界》所探讨的要深刻得多。这对情侣似乎因为性欲而被扔进了地狱，但在我看来，大地的隆隆声，风的低语，树木的沙沙声，鸟儿和昆虫的歌声，简而言之，所有的自然之物，都在引导这对夫妇进入地狱。而鬼魂本身就是大自然的一部分。性和爱情都没有任何意义。生命本身没有意义。如果生命没有意义，那不就是地狱吗？我所能做的就是向你表达和投射这个毫无意义的人间生活，这个「地狱」对我来说永远是美丽的。

What relationship should one infer between the supernatural elements of your story and the Japanese tradition of the ghost story?

记者：你的故事中的超自然因素和日本鬼故事的传统之间有什么关系呢？ Traditional Japanese art, whether it’s Kabuki or Kodan, often calls on the presence of ghosts. In truth, most of these stories came to us from China, and they were transformed to serve as edifying stories of revenge. The ghost in my story is quite different. He’s born out of the folklore that Japanese people have managed to keep alive from generation to generation. He is a popular, homegrown ghost, as has rarely appeared on screen or stage. For Seki and Toyoji, just as for the people in the village, he doesn’t belong to the imaginary. They can actually see him and enter fully into this supernatural universe. Nonetheless, I am aware that viewers today will only “see” the ghost by turning to their imaginations. To prepare the audience for it, I had to put myself in their place. So, for example, the way I handled scenes of physical love couldn’t be completely explicit.

大岛渚：在日本的传统艺术中，无论是歌舞伎还是讲谈，都经常提及鬼魂的存在。事实上，这些故事大多来自中国，它们被改造成了具有启发性的复仇故事。我故事中的鬼魂完全不同，他出身于日本人世世代代传承下来的民间传说，他是一个很受欢迎的土生土长的幽灵，很少出现在银幕或舞台上。对于阿石和丰次来说，就像村里的人一样，他不属于想象中的人。他们实际上可以看到他，并完全进入这个超自然的宇宙中。不过，我知道今天的观众只有靠想象才能「看见」鬼魂。为了让观众做好准备，我必须设身处地地为他们着想。因此，举个例子，我处理肉体性爱场景的方式不能全是露骨直白的。

You focus part of your story on an old well, a symbolic place of passage from outside to inside. Did it strike you as a symbolic place between the imaginary and reality?

记者：你将你故事的一部分聚焦在了一口老井上，这是一个从外部到内部的象征性的通道。你有没有觉得它是一个介于想象和现实之间的，带有象征性的地方？

My first screenplay, when I was twenty-two, was titledSeishun no fukachi fuchi yori[From the Bottom of the Abyss of Love]. We’re all there, we’ve all always been there, at the bottom of that old well. When you throw something into that well, you’re probably hoping to get an answer. If the two lovers go down there before the conclusion of the film, it is because I wanted to express the obvious: we’re still at the bottom of the well!

大岛渚：我在２２岁时写的第一部电影剧本就叫做《来自爱情的深渊》（译者注：大岛渚的第一部编剧作品应为１９５３年，与川端康成共同编剧的《千羽鹤》，大岛渚提及的应该是次年的一部电影）我们当时都进入到了那口旧井中。当你向井里扔进什么东西时，你可能期待得到回应。这对情侣在影片结束之前来到了井下，这是因为我想表达显而易见的事实：我们还在井底！ Why did you make Denzo, Toyoji’s younger brother, a simpleton? Was it to end the film on the vision of the “idiot” left to himself in the deserted village once “the sound and fury” had been appeased?

记者：你为什么要将丰次的弟弟处理成一个傻子?电影结束时，当「喧哗与骚动」过去后，电影是以这个「傻子」一个人独自在这个被遗弃的村庄的视角结束的吗? Nowadays, lawmakers think it’s a good idea to commit these “idiots” to psychiatric hospitals. Back in the day, you would run into them on all the roads of Japan. Isn’t it the law of nature that we should live by their side, just as we live amid animals and birds? Regardless of all that, it’s not a story “told by an idiot.” In the tradition of ancient Japanese stories, the narrator is an old woman. A woman whose face is riddled with deep wrinkles. Deep like the wrinkles of the earth, because the earth is at the heart of this story.

大岛渚：如今，那些制定法律的人会认为把这些「白痴」送进精神病院是个好主意。在过去，在日本的所有道路上，你都会遇到他们。自然法则不就是我们应该生活在他们的身边，就像我们生活在动物和鸟类中间一样吗？不管怎么说，这不是一个「由白痴讲述的故事」。按照日本古代故事的传统，叙述者是一位老妇人。脸上布满深深皱纹的女人。像土地的皱纹一样深，因为土地是这个故事的核心。

The Oedipal nature of the relationship between Seki and Toyoji is very obvious when the young man pushes away the baby she’s breast-feeding. At the time ofSenses,you left the responsibility for any psychoanalytic interpretation to the viewer. Have you evolved since? Are you aware that your films penetrate the subconscious more deeply than any other filmmaker’s?

记者：当丰次推开她正在哺乳的婴儿时，阿石和丰次之间的恋母情结就非常明显了。在《感官世界》中，你把任何精神分析解读的责任都留给了观众。从那以后你有没有变化和进步？你有没有意识到你的电影比任何其他导演的电影都更深入地渗透到潜意识中？

I can only repeat what I’ve always said. Everyone is free to interpret my films as they see them. That said, I am not one of those people who want to interpret the world at any price. I identify with beings like Seki and Toyoji, with people who live and die without ever being able to read their destiny. They’re the ones I feel the closest to. If you call that being close to the “subconscious,” I accept your formulation. I wonder, however, if the work of the artist doesn’t boil down to expressing and projecting outside of himself, as simply as possible, that which resists interpretation.

大岛渚：我只能重复我一直说的话。每个人都可以自由地按照他们看到的方式来解读我的电影。也就是说，我不是那种不惜一切代价去解读世界的人。我认同像阿石和丰次这样的人的存在，认同那些活着然后死去，却无法预知自己命运的人。他们是我觉得最亲近的人。如果你称之为接近「潜意识」，我接受你的表述。然而，我会思考，是否艺术家的作品难以表露和投射到他自我的范围之外，并且那些解释也会尽可能地简单。

What does Seki’s blindness represent? Is it another reference to the myth of Oedipus?

记者：阿石的失明代表了什么？这是不是「俄狄浦斯神话」的另一处例子？ What if this were the punishment that Gisaburo wanted Seki to endure? Or an expression of complete and total love? Aren’t we happier if we go through life blind?

大岛渚：这是否会是仪三郎想要对阿石施加的惩罚？或是完整而彻底的爱的表达？如果失明度过一生，我们不是更快乐吗？

When Gisaburo’s body rises to the surface, doesn’t it seem for a moment that Seki regains her sight?

记者：当仪三郎的尸体从井里被拉上来时，阿石的眼睛是不是在那一刻似乎又能看见了？ That comment elicits only one question: “DidSeki’s eyes see Gisaburo?” Each viewer is free to decide for himself. But it seems to me that is the case.

大岛渚：这一观点只引出了一个问题：“阿石的眼睛看到仪三郎了吗？”每位观众都可以自由决定。但在我看来，情况就是这样。

Why is Toyoji the last person in the village to “see” the spirit?

记者：为什么丰次是全村里最后一个「看见」鬼魂的人？ How can henotsee it? That is an eternal question, “Quo vadis, Domine?” [Where are you going, Lord?] It’s a universal truth, and an everlasting one.

大岛渚：他怎么可能看不到呢？这是一个永恒的问题，「主啊，您要去哪里？」这是一个普遍的真理，也是一个永恒的真理。

The representative of the law, Officer Hotta, is oddly ridiculous. You even clothe him as a peasant. Is he a character that comes from a comical Japanese tradition?

记者：代表法律的警长的角色出奇地可笑，你甚至把他打扮成农民。他是来自日本喜剧传统的角色吗？ I’ve always used actors with comedic temperaments for the roles of police officers. Because this is a way that I see power. The funnier the representatives are, the scarier.

大岛渚：我经常用带有喜剧感的演员来扮演警官的角色，因为这就是我看待权力的方式。这些权力的代表们越是搞笑，也就越让人可怕。 The manifestations of the supernatural are very simple. How did you conceive of and direct these effects?

记者：电影中超自然现象的表现非常简单。你是如何构思和指导这些效果的？

I never had any intention of directing “special effects.” You talk of simplicity, but like I said, my ghost is a very simple ghost, different from the phantoms that traditional decorative arts have often used for moralistic purposes.

大岛渚：我从来没有想过要导演「特效」。你谈到简单，但就像我说的，我的鬼魂是一个非常简单的鬼魂，不同于传统装饰艺术经常用于道德目的的幻影。

Did you give your cinematographer a lot of leeway, or did you dictate a specific style?

记者：在影片的摄影风格上，你给予了摄影师一些余地，还是你自己有某种特定风格上的要求？ Do I give verbal directions to my crew or my actors? When I put together my team, I choose them according to their own style. They read the screenplay and try their best to be in tune with the demands of the story. It’s very important to me that this harmony, this unity, work itself out without my verbalizing anything. What I really want is for everyone to give the best of themselves in complete freedom.

大岛渚：我要给我的剧组或演员口头指示吗？当我组建我的团队时，我会根据他们自己的风格来选择他们。他们阅读剧本，尽最大努力与故事的要求保持一致。这对我来说非常重要，这种和谐，这种统一，不需要我用语言来表达，就能自行解决。我真正想要的是每个人都能在完全自由的状态下发挥自己最好的一面。

Why is this again a coproduction with France?

记者：为何《爱的亡灵》这次增加了与法国的合作？ I’m not particularly committed to working within the framework of an international coproduction. But this has brought me, in the case ofSenses,to look at Japan in a new way.Passion,which I again coproduced with Anatole Dauman, was another opportunity to deepen my vision of Japan, and therefore of the world and of men.

大岛渚：我并不特别致力于在国际合拍片的框架内工作，但这让我开始以一种新的方式看待日本。我与阿纳托·多曼再次联合制作的《爱的亡灵》是我加深对日本的看法的又一次机会，因此也加深了我对世界和男人的看法。 You said in 1969, “Sex and crime have one thing in common—they are the most violent urges of human beings.” These two urges are tied together throughoutPassion.Will your future work be expanding in that direction?

记者：你曾于1969年说，「性和犯罪都有一个共同点——它们都是人性中最暴力的冲动。」在《爱的亡灵》中，这两种冲动一同贯穿着全片。你会在你未来的作品中延续这种方向吗？ I found, several years after directing my first films, that I was very attracted to these two topics, sex and crime. Subsequently, my films have addressed them in a very analytic way. Today, I’m at a stage where I simply like to project the naked reality of sex and crime before the spectator’s eyes.

大岛渚：在执导我的第一部电影几年后，我发现我对性和犯罪这两个话题非常感兴趣。随后，我的电影以一种十分具有分析性的方式解决了这些问题。今天，我只是想把性和犯罪赤裸裸的现实呈现到观众的眼中。

In the beginning, by your own admission, you aimed to “destroy all aesthetics.” Then you found your own aesthetic, which you once summed up with a shot featuring a flame against a black or dark background. Should one see in that image a metaphor for the passions that consume your characters, or one for your own creative endeavors?

记者：一开始，你自己承认，你的目标是「摧毁所有的美学」。然后你找到了自己的美学，你曾经用一个黑色或暗色背景下的火焰为特色的镜头来总结这一美学。人们应该在这张图片中看到消耗你角色的激情的隐喻，还是你自己的创造性努力的隐喻？

Since my very first films, primarilyNight and Fog in Japan,certain critics have picked up on a shot that for them was characteristic of my work, one where a flame burns in the dark. For me, this flame represents the lives of my characters. But it’s also an image of our lives. I often cite this maxim: “Just like the fish that dwell in the abyss, we cannot find the light until we ourselves shine.”

大岛渚：自从我的第一部电影——主要是《日本的夜与雾》以来，一些评论家就注意到了这个镜头，一个在黑暗中燃烧的火焰的镜头。对他们来说，这是我作品的特色。对我来说，这团火焰代表了我笔下人物的生命。但它也是我们生活的一幅图景。我经常引用这句格言：「就像居住在深渊中的鱼一样，只有自己发光才能找到光明。」